Discussion:
Babi Yar faktat vastaan holocaustisatu
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TJT2
2014-09-24 08:15:44 UTC
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Again and again, the Holocaust Controversies authors rely on demonstrably
phony evidence to advance their claims. I could cite numerous
examples, but I will confine myself here to three: arguments relating
to the so-called Gerstein Report, the alleged massacre at Babi Yar
and the imaginary Erntefest mass shooting at Majdnek.
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1.3.2. The Alleged Babi Yar Massacre

Of all the mass shootings allegedly perpetrated by the Germans and
their local helpers on the Eastern Front, the Babi Yar massacre is the
most notorious. On 29 September 1941, 33,711 Jews are said to have
been killed at the Babi Yar ravine near Kiev. Predictably, Jonathan Harrison
uncritically accepts the official version of Babi Yar in his chapter
about the "Extermination of Soviet Jews, June 1941-March 1942." (p.
100)

Udo Walendy40 and Herbert Tiedemann41 have documented the wild
implausibility of the official version of Babi Yar. As just one example,
the various "witnesses" to this alleged crime flagrantly contradict each
other on the most basic issue of identifying the killing instrument: the
victims were shot with rifles, or submachine guns, or slaughtered with
bayonets, or buried alive, or blown up by mines, or squashed with
tanks, or killed by means of lethal injections, or drowned in the Dnieper,
or exploded by hand grenades, or had their heads crushed with
rocks, or were suffocated in gas vans.41 Needless to say, none of these
embarrassing discrepancies are mentioned by Harrison.

Had the Germans really murdered more than 33,000 Jews on the
outskirts of Kiev on 29-30 September 1941, the Soviet government
would have learned of this atrocity within days and immediately denounced
it in the strongest terms. As it happens, the first official mention
of the "massacre" came at an impossibly late date. On 6 January
1942, Soviet foreign minister V. Molotov stated that "a large number"
of Jews had been stripped naked, beaten (!) and shot in the Jewish cemetery
of Kiev.41

So much for "eyewitness testimony." What about forensic remains?
According to the official version of the Babi Yar story, the bodies of
the victims were dug up and burned by the SS in September 1943, as
the Red Army was approaching the Ukrainian capital, in order to destroy
all evidence of the crime. If we are to believe the "witnesses," this
mass cremation action wrapped up just before the end of the month.42
Yet on September 26, the German Luftwaffe flew a reconnaissance
mission over Kiev, taking aerial photographs of numerous parts of the
city, including the district in which Babi Yar was located. In 1992,
revisionist
researcher John Ball obtained a copy of the Babi Yar photograph
from U.S. archives, and published it. His commentary encapsulates
what any objective observer can see from the photograph itself:43

"1943 air photos of Babi Yar ravine and the adjacent Jewish cemetery
in Kiev reveal that neither the soil nor the vegetation is disturbed, as
would
be expected if materials and fuel had been transported one week earlier to
hundreds of workers who had dug up and burned tens of thousands of bodies
in one month."

However, it remains to be noted that the killing of 33,711 Jews near
Kiev is indeed mentioned in one of the Einsatzgruppen reports.44 So either
the report is a forgery, or it is formally authentic but historically
inaccurate.
In either case, the report casts doubts on the authenticity, or
veracity, of the Einsatzgruppen reports as a whole.

Does this mean that no Jews were shot near Kiev in late September
1941? Indeed it does not. As soon as German troops had occupied the
Ukrainian capital on September 19, 1941, tremendous explosions
rocked the city, and on 25 September a major fire caused widespread
damage. Before long, mines had destroyed almost all public buildings,
and hundreds of German soldiers and Ukrainian civilians had perished.
45 To this kind of terrorist activity the German military typically
responded as occupying armies throughout history have responded to
similar provocation: with reprisals. If shown hard evidence that two or
three thousand Jews were indeed shot towards the end of September
1941, I would not be overly surprised. Since the Germans would not
have wanted to alienate the local ethnic Ukrainians (many of whom had
welcomed them as liberators from the "Jewish"-Communist yoke), according
to the grim logic of war the local Jews would have emerged as
the natural target of such reprisals.

In any case, crucial questions remain unanswered. If a certain number
of Jews were indeed killed, and if the killing itself was indeed carried
out at one location in Babi Yar, why do the various "eyewitness"
reports allege such wildly differing - and absurd - killing methods? On
the other hand, if reprisals were carried out at another location (and in
fact, Babi Yar is not mentioned at all in the respective Einsatzgruppen
report), why did the Soviets not identify the place of execution correctly?
After all, in the absence of external observers to check their assertions,
they could have claimed as many victims as they wanted either
way.
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28-tecoar-long.pdf
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Wiesel also quotes accounts of Jews being murdered at Babi Yar, where for
"month after month the ground never
stopped trembling" and "from time to time, geysers of blood spurted from
it."[824] I thought, Is this from the man who
will tell me the truth of the Holocaust?
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DDuke: My Awakening
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Yevtusheko's famous poem refers to 'the thousands of thousands interred',
but in fact there are no bodies interred at Babi Yar. The mass grave shown
in the photo is in Vinnitsa, Ukraine. There are no poems about Vinnitsa.
In the midst of WW II, the Nazis discovered mass graves in Vinnitsa,
Ukraine. In the summer of 1943 they invited an international team of
forensic experts, including pathologists from Belgium, France, Netherlands,
and Sweden, to examine the bodies and to conduct autopsies. They exhumed
9000+ bodies. Over 600 were identified.
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http://www.holohoax101.org/201/
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What is now coming to the fore is incontrovertible proof that no massacre
took place at Babi Yar during the German occupation of Kiev; that the ravine
was not used as a mass grave for Jews killed by the Germans. But it was a
burial field between 1922-1935 for the victims of the Cheka/NKVD.
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https://www.stormfront.org/forum/t640786/
http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/BabiYar/Nikiforuk.html

P de G uhosi kumoavansa "uusnatsien" väitteet jos saa listan, ja sen olen jo
toimittanut, joten kohta se nähdään onko katetta vai Pötkiikö de Garkuun...
--
--TJT--
Kaksi samantapaista mutta ei samanlaista määritelmää antaa kuvan siitä, että
asiaa ei todella itsekään ymmärretä.
- evolutionsti Raimo Suono
TJT2
2014-11-09 12:43:42 UTC
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Post by TJT2
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What is now coming to the fore is incontrovertible proof that no
massacre took place at Babi Yar during the German occupation of Kiev;
that the ravine was not used as a mass grave for Jews killed by the
Germans. But it was a burial field between 1922-1935 for the victims
of the Cheka/NKVD. x x x clop4 x x x
https://www.stormfront.org/forum/t640786/
http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/BabiYar/Nikiforuk.html
P de G uhosi kumoavansa "uusnatsien" väitteet jos saa listan, ja sen
olen jo toimittanut, joten kohta se nähdään onko katetta vai Pötkiikö
de Garkuun...
Noin siis syyskuussa, joten "kohta" tuli ja meni, ja olemme jo nähneet
kuinka Pekka de Groot raukkamaisesti katosi näistä ryhmistä, mutta kävi
ruuskaisemassa evoryhmässä, joten mistään teknisestä ongelmasta ei siis ole
kyse vaan nimenomaan raukkamaisuudesta. Ja siinä toisessa ketjussa
mainitsemassani ohjelmassa oli myös tuosta Babi Yarista, tosin muistaakseni
kirjoittivat "Babyn Yar" tjps... toistivat tuota samaa valhetta, jonka jo
tuossa syyskuussa kumosin, tai oik nuo oikeat historiantutkijat ovat
kumonneet vuosia sitten. Ja korjaus, se kanava on viralliselta nimeltään
VIASAT HISTORY, ja ohjelma oli ilmeisesti "Toinen maailmansota väreissä".
--
--TJT--
The truth is now called hate, but I'll defend it anyway.
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